Sam Harvey, Architect at Allford Hall Monaghan Morris, talks to me about his Shared Parental Leave #eldorado
[Part of a series of interviews
I’m conducting with other professionals taking Shared Parental Leave]
“I also think that there is the inertia of changing men's perception of themselves i.e. that men are the breadwinners and that any time they are not at work progressing their career or earning as much as they can, in some way they are not providing for their family.
Men are less alert to the fact that they can provide for their family emotionally and psychologically, as well as in pure financial terms.”
Finally, would you recommend SPL to
other dads?
This week, I caught up with Sam
Harvey
to talk about his experience of taking Shared Parental Leave with his second child
in 2017.
Sam’s insights on men being able to battle their own
perceptions, and the workplace skills acquired through taking parental leave, are enlightening.
I want to actually draw out one particular quote because I thought it was so brilliant:
I want to actually draw out one particular quote because I thought it was so brilliant:
Men are less alert to the fact that they can provide for their family emotionally and psychologically, as well as in pure financial terms.”
Great stuff.
Enjoy folks!
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Brief description of family setup:
I’m Sam and, together with my wife, Alice, we have two
children - Sebastian (or “Seb”) who has just turned six and Arwen, who is almost
three.
When both of our kids were born, we were living in Hackney –
but last year we moved out of Central London down to Tunbridge Wells, which is
closer to my parents.
Brief description of your job /
partner’s job etc:
I'm an Associate at Allford
Hall Monaghan Morris.
AHMM is an architectural practice based on Old Street. When I joined the
practice, straight out of university back in 2002, we were 35 people; we are now
over 500 with offices in London, Bristol and the slightly random location of
Oklahoma City, US.
We're actually sitting in a building (The Bower, Old St,
London) that AHMM refurbished
– and opposite another big AHMM project, The White Collar Factory. We work across a lot of sectors including
housing, offices, and healthcare and back in 2015 we won the Stirling Prize for
one of our education buildings.
Partner’s job and role.
My wife is a lawyer at Sidley Austin. Most architects don’t have a clue about which law firms do
what, so if I’m talking to another architect I just tell them that Sidley was
the firm where Barrack Obama met Michelle when he was working as her intern!
Alice specialises in corporate restructuring and insolvency but
is also now also doing an Msc in Organisational and Social Psychology at LSE.
How did you structure your Shared
Parental Leave?
We took SPL with our second child in the summer of 2017. I
took a bit of time off immediately after the birth and then took 7 weeks off
when Arwen was around 6 months old and Seb was coming up for his 4th
birthday. I took about 3 months SPL in total.
During the main part of my SPL we went travelling around the
Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico [more on this below!].
Work
Did your employer provide enhanced
pay for your Shared Parental Leave?
Yes - I received paid leave – and although I had nothing to
benchmark it against, I felt that AHMM were very fair on that side of things.
You need both parents’ companies to talk to one another when
you are taking SPL. I remember things were a bit more bureaucratic at Sidley
Austin than at AHMM. In the end, it was a really brilliant member of AHMM’s HR
team who ended up leading the coordination and giving us some really clear advice.
AHMM has a full set of HR documents that are available for
all employees which set out the SPL policy – but I still needed some of the
intricacies explained to me!
Did you feel that Shared Parental
Leave was encouraged informally within your firm and did you feel supported by
colleagues / managers in taking SPL?
The answer to this question is a bit trickier... AHMM’s HR
team were very keen to promote SPL, and I found them immensely supportive.
However, within the architecture profession generally there is a long-hours,
vocation culture – and if you are working on a long running project, taking a
big chunk of time out of the office can be difficult.
AHMM has always promoted a sensible work-life balance and
actively discourages excessive overtime and weekend working (because exhausted
architects don’t make the best decisions or perform at their best!). That’s
actually quite rare in this profession.
But even with a supportive structure around you - you're
battling your own in-built perceptions about being seen as a “part-timer”. An
attitude of almost fanatical commitment is drummed into architects from your
first year at university – you’re doing long hours, all-nighters in the studio
with a really close knit group of people. Breaking down those self-expectations
and changing the culture of a profession takes a long time.
There are voices saying “yeah, you should take SPL”…but it’s
still seen as the exception rather than the norm. That’s part of why I’ve
agreed to be interviewed – I’d like to help promote SPL within the architecture
industry.
Had anyone else in your team/company
taken SPL before you?
They may have done, but I wasn't aware of it.
How was your return to work; was it
daunting?
I think because I split it up into a couple of smaller
blocks – rather than one long period – the return to work was a bit easier.
I’d seen Alice go back to work after taking a full year’s
maternity leave with our first child. I’d seen her have to manage the
trepidation of going back into the office after an entire year out, whilst also
feeling the wrench of no longer spending as much time with Seb - so it’s really
a double whammy when you come back to work.
I think I avoided the worst of this as my longest period out
of the office was under two months.
Have you inspired others to take
SPL?
I wouldn't want to claim that I've ‘inspired’ anyone! I have had a few conversations where people have
said to me “It’s great that you did that…great that you felt able to take that
time to bond with your children.” - which is a positive sign and is hopefully
visible to other people in the office. Also, since I took my SPL, I’ve seen more
new fathers in the office take SPL and, whenever I’ve had the opportunity, I’ve
tried to be as encouraging to them as possible – to reassure them that they won’t
regret doing it, in fact quite the opposite.
Has the uptake helped a change of
attitude towards SPL within your firm?
I don’t think any change in attitude was caused by me taking
leave - I just think it's part of the momentum towards greater equality. For
example, at roughly the same time that I took SPL, there was the #metoo
movement gaining traction and the gender pay gap reporting requirements came
in. AHMM now has a gender pay gap working group to try to eliminate it. So, I
think myself and others taking SPL is just part of a broader conversation.
Are you proud of your company's SPL
policy and do you talk positively about it to people outside your company?
Yes. For example, roughly once a year I act as an RIBA part
III professional practice examiner at UCL (think of it like the Bar Exam for
architects). We have what are called “meet the examiner” sessions for the
students who are going to be interviewed as part of the final examination
process before they get to use the title ‘Architect’. I've used these
opportunities to talk about where I am in my career, which included talking
about taking SPL. As a group of examiners we are also comparing notes because
we’re coming together from a huge variety of different architectural practices… large
and small, and a lot of my fellow examiners have said “wow, it sounds like AHMM
are really setting a high standard”.
Having worked at AHMM for 17 years, it takes those type of
situations for me to sit back and be able to benchmark where AHMM is against
our competitors.
If moving job, would a prospective
different employers’ parental leave policy affect your decision about moving
company?
I think it might affect my decision in two ways:
Firstly, if we were considering having another child, it would
be a consideration from a totally selfish perspective…as in ‘how would it
benefit me?’.
Secondly, in a broader sense, how a company sets out its
Shared Parental Leave policy is going to tell you something about a firm’s
ethos. Although Alice and I have no plans to have more children at the moment (!), if moving companies, I think I would look at a firm’s SPL policy as part
of assessing how the management team was prepared to put its money where its
mouth is in terms of treatment of its staff.
When instructing professional
service firms - does your company consider a provider’s values - and would an
SPL policy play into this assessment? Or, in other words, does having a good
SPL policy give you a better impression of a company?
I tend to work with quantity surveyors, structural engineers
and services engineers – and sometimes you get a say in who you work with, and
sometimes you don’t. I like working with people I can trust – and values do
have something to do with that, but to be honest I don't think I've ever
interrogated a firm on its Shared Parental Leave policy before using them.
However, several years ago I did query whether AHMM could
become a “living wage employer” - and
because AHMM has certain values, the company acted on that. None of our direct
employees were affected, but it made us look at our suppliers more closely and
how they were paying their staff. In a similar way, I think there should be an
onus on people working in professional jobs - who are more likely to benefit
from Shared Parental Leave - to see that access to SPL isn’t just limited to a
privileged few.
Your SPL / Fun stuff
What did you get up to during your SPL?
So we did something a bit different and went backpacking in
the Yucatan Peninsula in Southern Mexico!
I have to give all the credit to Alice for this. I’m not an
adventurous traveller - whereas Alice has backpacked around China and did a gap
year in Brazil.
I was quite tentative about the Mexico idea. We looked
around and we were restricted because we couldn’t go anywhere with a young
child where they might contract malaria. I kept saying “can’t we just go to
North America??!”. I had to be prodded to go to Mexico, but I'm really glad we
did.
It was huge fun - though it wasn't all plain sailing. Arwen
was 6 months old – so she was pretty portable. However, Seb was almost 4 when we set
off (he actually had his 4th
birthday in Merida – with a revolting ‘Paw Patrol’ cake from a Mexican
supermarket!). At that age, kids like stability and regularity. He struggled
with the heat and moving from place to place every few days - and because he’s
pale and fair haired, we had to slather him in factor 50 sunscreen wherever we
went! But the fact that we swam with sea turtles and scaled Mayan pyramids buried
in jungle has given us memories we will have forever.
I tried to get Seb ready for the trip by watching episodes
of the Mysterious Cities of Gold…[this led to a hilarious tangential
discussion about this cult children’s TV show from the 80s that DadonSPL also
remembers very well!]
From our first child, we already had a close group of
parents from our NCT group – and I think Hackney was going through a mini
baby-boom at the time… so there seemed to be loads of young families
around. I don't remember doing many
classes but there was a lot of meeting other parents in parks or on the Marshes
and doing social stuff with them.
In terms of parenting, was there
anything that you felt, as a Dad, you couldn't do? Or vice versa?
I have no problem doing the prosaic manual stuff. I’ve
changed my fair share of nappies – in fact I was probably chief nappy changer
at points because our kids both wriggled like crazy and I find it easier than
Alice to grab both feet in one hand and change nappies with the other!
However, cajoling the kids into eating when they are in “I'm
not gonna eat” moods has always driven me up the wall!
There's a lot of “tag teaming”. Having children is
exhausting - especially after SPL if you're juggling kids and both parents have
full time jobs. You get quite stressed and you need to “tap out” and let your
partner take over sometimes. But over the years, Alice and I have spent a lot
time discussing this… although the ‘tapping out’ can avoid one of you blowing up,
it leads to a lot of lone-parenting which can be really lonely. This actually
continues when the kids get older: “you take that one to nursery and I'll do
the school run” etc. So finding things that you can all do together is really
important.
After your SPL, did you feel more
confident about your own childcare abilities, even given you took SPL with your
second child?
That's a really interesting question - and I honestly don't
think I've ever stopped to assess whether SPL affected my parenting skills.
However, I have definitely noticed how being a parent has improved
my patience and abilities as a manager of people in a much broader sense. I’ve
not always been the most diplomatic person or the calmest person; but having
kids (who are essentially tiny, irrational maniacs) forces you to just slow
down and have a reduced expectation that the people around you will behave
rationally! It’s made me analyse and adjust how I respond to people in general
– calmer, less judgemental, and hopefully more constructive.
A couple of years before I had my first child, I had a long
conversation with an older gentleman who was working as a consultant for CBRE
(a Real Estate firm) - who made the
point that bright professional men often marry bright professional women. The
professional women then take potentially long periods of time off work having
and looking after children – and whilst they are doing this, the women are
learning a huge array of new skills and developing in ways that are hidden
because it’s happening at home instead of in the office. As men, we then get surprised
when these women come back into the workforce and they are immensely skilled problem
solvers who excel at managing people and reading difficult situations. Having
kids is not just a rewarding and lovely experience: it's also immensely
educational.
Can you see any reason, other than
financial impact, why a dad shouldn't take Shared Parental Leave?
No.
My wife repeatedly says that people never get to the end of
their lives and say “I wish I’d spent more time in the office”, but they do
sometimes say “I wish I’d made more time for my family and friends.”
What would your top tip be for new
Dads?
My boss gave me some good advice before my first child was
born: don’t take all of the paternity leave at once at the start when the baby
is born. I took his advice for our first child and it probably also influenced
my decision to split up the SPL into smaller blocks when our second child came
along.
To explain…when the baby is born there’s the thunder and
lighting of the birth, but that settles down quickly and the baby sleeps 80% of
the time so there’s a lot of waiting around. Best to keep your powder dry for
when your partner gets totally exhausted a month or so in…and you really need
to be around to support them then!
Why do you think take-up of Shared
Parental Leave is so small?
I think that there are obviously issues with money. I’m
mindful of how I talk about this given that I'm a moderately successful
architect who is married to a very successful lawyer. However, even we watch
the pennies - so for people who aren't in the position that we are in
financially, anything that means your
income takes a knock can mean taking SPL would be quite precarious. There are
an awful lot of people who don't have the income or savings to take SPL - so
until the time comes when making this choice is entirely costs neutral, there
is always going to be a drag on uptake.
I also think that there is the inertia of changing men's
perception of themselves i.e. that men are the breadwinners and that any time
you are not at work progressing your career or earning as much as you can, in
some way you are not providing for your family.
Men are less alert to the fact that you can provide for your
family emotionally and psychologically by being there and engaged, as well as
in purely financial terms.
Quickfire qs:
What is the longest you've looked after kid/s on your
own?
That's a tricky one! I think probably a couple of days
though not through a lack of confidence on my part - Alice just has a very
strong belief that we shouldn't leave the kids without both parents for too
long... an interesting question though… I've never put a stopwatch on it!
Worst childcare task/job?
Trying (and failing) to get Seb to stop watching television!
I'm quite a logical person and I always fall into the trap
of trying to engage my children in a logical debate - whereas Alice's more
oblique “smoke and mirrors” diversionary tactics are far more successful!
Best childcare task/job?
Just playing with them and being silly. I have a healthy
sense of the absurd and the surreal!
In your view, who would make the
better Dad:
Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson?
- Has to be Jeremy Corbyn. Boris doesn't even know how many kids he's got!
Prince Harry or Prince William?
- I'm not a Royalist - I’m a Republican actually - but I've been really impressed by Harry's determination to address the issues that are important to him rather than just play it safe.
Jonny Wilkinson or David Beckham?
- I'm an ex rugby player who was terrible at football - so Wilkinson without a doubt.
Absolutely and
unconditionally!
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© Joe Young
/ www.dadonspl.co.uk
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Yeah. Sam's thoughts on men's ability to combat their own views, as well as the workplace skills gained during parental leave. I'd want to highlight one particular quote because I felt it was really amazing. Well, at the moment I am working with online dissertation writing help for some special information and help. In which time i saw your post thanks for sharing it.
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